Comments on: Matthew Murray and The Dark Side of Support Forums http://www.contentious.com/2007/12/12/matthew-murray-and-the-dark-side-of-support-forums/ Amy Gahran's news and musings on how we communicate in the online age. Sun, 23 Nov 2008 14:54:52 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: starviego http://www.contentious.com/2007/12/12/matthew-murray-and-the-dark-side-of-support-forums/#comment-1210415 starviego Mon, 14 Jan 2008 05:34:19 +0000 http://www.contentious.com/2007/12/12/matthew-murray-and-the-dark-side-of-support-forums/#comment-1210415 Conservatarium, What is your source for your claim that "he was hearing voices, and claiming to be psychic?" Conservatarium,

What is your source for your claim that “he was hearing voices, and claiming to be psychic?”

]]> By: Karoli http://www.contentious.com/2007/12/12/matthew-murray-and-the-dark-side-of-support-forums/#comment-1209778 Karoli Sun, 06 Jan 2008 19:06:47 +0000 http://www.contentious.com/2007/12/12/matthew-murray-and-the-dark-side-of-support-forums/#comment-1209778 Conservatarian, I could tell from reading the message boards that you were doing all you possibly could to deal with him, not just on that day but on the days preceding his final acts. Like Amy, I don't think there's anything you all did that was wrong; in fact, I think you did everything possible to make it right. He may have been psychotic as you say, and I think that's where behavior goes beyond the scope of online interaction. Alerting the FBI was certainly the right thing to do in that situation. Murray aside for a moment, do you have the sense that the venting process that sometimes goes on in support forums like this actually contributes to the shaky mental state of members, or does it heal? The questions I ask don't come out of a spirit of condemnation at all -- this is a very real problem that people in depression and anxiety support groups deal with every day as well. It boils down to the question of how best to handle members who may not only be dangerous to their real-life communities, but also their online communities? In reading Murray's story, I feel an enormous amount of sorrow for his family and the folks in your forum who did try to help him. It was tragic that there was no intervention possible by the time he'd made the decision to go on his rampage, either by your community or those who interacted with him in daily life. I truly hope that all of you are healing and know that those of us looking in are not doing so to judge or criticize you. Conservatarian,

I could tell from reading the message boards that you were doing all you possibly could to deal with him, not just on that day but on the days preceding his final acts. Like Amy, I don’t think there’s anything you all did that was wrong; in fact, I think you did everything possible to make it right.

He may have been psychotic as you say, and I think that’s where behavior goes beyond the scope of online interaction. Alerting the FBI was certainly the right thing to do in that situation.

Murray aside for a moment, do you have the sense that the venting process that sometimes goes on in support forums like this actually contributes to the shaky mental state of members, or does it heal?

The questions I ask don’t come out of a spirit of condemnation at all — this is a very real problem that people in depression and anxiety support groups deal with every day as well. It boils down to the question of how best to handle members who may not only be dangerous to their real-life communities, but also their online communities?

In reading Murray’s story, I feel an enormous amount of sorrow for his family and the folks in your forum who did try to help him. It was tragic that there was no intervention possible by the time he’d made the decision to go on his rampage, either by your community or those who interacted with him in daily life.

I truly hope that all of you are healing and know that those of us looking in are not doing so to judge or criticize you.

]]> By: Amy Gahran http://www.contentious.com/2007/12/12/matthew-murray-and-the-dark-side-of-support-forums/#comment-1209769 Amy Gahran Sun, 06 Jan 2008 17:45:24 +0000 http://www.contentious.com/2007/12/12/matthew-murray-and-the-dark-side-of-support-forums/#comment-1209769 Conservatarian, thanks so much for responding to my post. I realize that people in your forum -- apparently including yourself -- did try to reach out to Murray and to law enforcement. The sad thing is that when people are really determined to kill, it's nearly impossible to stop them from doing so, and early warning signs are often ambiguous or difficult to detect. That said, I'd like to hear your views on the main point of my post -- that sometimes support forums can have the unintended side effect of reinforcing negative triggers in mentally unstable people. Do you think -- despite everyone's best intentions -- that might have happened here? And if so, how might a community such as yours address that? Please understand that I do not blame you our your community in any way for this tragedy. I'm just wondering how we can grapple with this thorny issue, and what other communities might learn from this experience. - Amy Gahran Conservatarian, thanks so much for responding to my post. I realize that people in your forum — apparently including yourself — did try to reach out to Murray and to law enforcement. The sad thing is that when people are really determined to kill, it’s nearly impossible to stop them from doing so, and early warning signs are often ambiguous or difficult to detect.

That said, I’d like to hear your views on the main point of my post — that sometimes support forums can have the unintended side effect of reinforcing negative triggers in mentally unstable people. Do you think — despite everyone’s best intentions — that might have happened here? And if so, how might a community such as yours address that?

Please understand that I do not blame you our your community in any way for this tragedy. I’m just wondering how we can grapple with this thorny issue, and what other communities might learn from this experience.

- Amy Gahran

]]> By: Conservatarian http://www.contentious.com/2007/12/12/matthew-murray-and-the-dark-side-of-support-forums/#comment-1209759 Conservatarian Sun, 06 Jan 2008 16:10:51 +0000 http://www.contentious.com/2007/12/12/matthew-murray-and-the-dark-side-of-support-forums/#comment-1209759 Hello there. I'm a member of the message board you referenced. As mentioned above, we did try to get him to get help for his mental issues. From what I've now learned, he was not only neurotic, but psychotic as well. He was hearing voices, and claiming to be psychic. Our initial fear, from reading his past posts, was that he was suicidal. We had no idea that he was also homicidal, until he posted his death threats against all christians, on the last day of his life. I figure that he intended it to serve as a final testament. I, along with another member, attempted to talk him out of doing this act of murder, but it was already to late. He had already killed those people at YWAM, and was on his way to carry out the shooting at New Life Church, after posting his final posts on our board. In closing, I just want to state for the record that we weren't trying to cover up for Matthew Murray. We alerted the F.B.I. to the suspicious postings, as soon as we became aware of the killings in Colorado. We then deleted some of his posts, in order to protect his privacy from curiousity seekers. But the F.B.I. eventualy released them to the press anyway. Hello there. I’m a member of the message board you referenced. As mentioned above, we did try to get him to get help for his mental issues. From what I’ve now learned, he was not only neurotic, but psychotic as well. He was hearing voices, and claiming to be psychic. Our initial fear, from reading his past posts, was that he was suicidal. We had no idea that he was also homicidal, until he posted his death threats against all christians, on the last day of his life. I figure that he intended it to serve as a final testament. I, along with another member, attempted to talk him out of doing this act of murder, but it was already to late. He had already killed those people at YWAM, and was on his way to carry out the shooting at New Life Church, after posting his final posts on our board. In closing, I just want to state for the record that we weren’t trying to cover up for Matthew Murray. We alerted the F.B.I. to the suspicious postings, as soon as we became aware of the killings in Colorado. We then deleted some of his posts, in order to protect his privacy from curiousity seekers. But the F.B.I. eventualy released them to the press anyway.

]]> By: Jill http://www.contentious.com/2007/12/12/matthew-murray-and-the-dark-side-of-support-forums/#comment-1207269 Jill Wed, 12 Dec 2007 20:01:30 +0000 http://www.contentious.com/2007/12/12/matthew-murray-and-the-dark-side-of-support-forums/#comment-1207269 Amy, I'd like to suggest that some forums are probably analogous to online versions of group therapy, except without a professional clinician who knows how to recognize red flags that should trigger some kind of risk assessment re: whether or not to break the confidence of the group and contact law enforcement, potential third party victims etc. Think of the Tarasoff case - one of the touchstones of the duty to warn concept in mental health. Now, I don't know if virtual group therapy forums exist where licensed clinicians can intervene just as they might if the group were meeting in person, but I would have to think that they do exist and the clinicians can and probably do intervene. It's not realistic to imagine that every forum should have or needs to have some kind of clinician present or moderating, for the benefit of unspecified potential victims. That's just not possible or necessary. But should the entities that host forums be guided by some guidelines that say something like, "If certain topics are the core of what will be discusses, it's advisable that you have someone monitor the content"? I am thinking online (as opposed to outloud) now - so I don't really know. But these are just some thoughts that come to mind after reading your post. Thanks. Amy, I’d like to suggest that some forums are probably analogous to online versions of group therapy, except without a professional clinician who knows how to recognize red flags that should trigger some kind of risk assessment re: whether or not to break the confidence of the group and contact law enforcement, potential third party victims etc. Think of the Tarasoff case - one of the touchstones of the duty to warn concept in mental health.

Now, I don’t know if virtual group therapy forums exist where licensed clinicians can intervene just as they might if the group were meeting in person, but I would have to think that they do exist and the clinicians can and probably do intervene.

It’s not realistic to imagine that every forum should have or needs to have some kind of clinician present or moderating, for the benefit of unspecified potential victims. That’s just not possible or necessary.

But should the entities that host forums be guided by some guidelines that say something like, “If certain topics are the core of what will be discusses, it’s advisable that you have someone monitor the content”?

I am thinking online (as opposed to outloud) now - so I don’t really know. But these are just some thoughts that come to mind after reading your post.

Thanks.

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