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	<title>Comments on: Online Porcupines: Pricky Business (Online Vermin, Part 1)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.contentious.com/2005/01/28/online-porcupines-pricky-business-online-vermin-part-1/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.contentious.com/2005/01/28/online-porcupines-pricky-business-online-vermin-part-1/</link>
	<description>Amy Gahran's news and musings on how we communicate in the online age.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 06:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Paul Lewis</title>
		<link>http://www.contentious.com/2005/01/28/online-porcupines-pricky-business-online-vermin-part-1/#comment-13628</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Lewis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Feb 2005 03:05:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-13628</guid>
		<description>Amy, it's refreshing to hear someone on the web so forgiving of Porcupines.  There ARE indeed those who fail to realize that their readers cannot see them, do not know their personalities (a dry sense of humour has gotten THIS writer in trouble more than once).  However, just like road rage, some folks turn into different human beings when hiding behind the anonymity of the web.  You can imagine the surprise on the face of a gentleman who'd quite seriously maligned me on a list-serv I use for both pleasure and business (it's music; and I'm in the entertainment business) when I knocked on his door one evening.  I almost didn't; the squalor was pathetic.  The poor soul was a phoney who could only derive a sense of power; a sense of self - by demeaning others on the web (and thereby making myself and a good portion of the other members of the list-serv miserable).  I told him who I was, and that I thought that an apology was in order.  And that was it.  He had no choice.  And I went away feeling guilty and sad that I'd bothered to put so much energy into reaping some sort of "revenge" from this character who was so devoid of self-esteem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amy, it&#8217;s refreshing to hear someone on the web so forgiving of Porcupines.  There ARE indeed those who fail to realize that their readers cannot see them, do not know their personalities (a dry sense of humour has gotten THIS writer in trouble more than once).  However, just like road rage, some folks turn into different human beings when hiding behind the anonymity of the web.  You can imagine the surprise on the face of a gentleman who&#8217;d quite seriously maligned me on a list-serv I use for both pleasure and business (it&#8217;s music; and I&#8217;m in the entertainment business) when I knocked on his door one evening.  I almost didn&#8217;t; the squalor was pathetic.  The poor soul was a phoney who could only derive a sense of power; a sense of self - by demeaning others on the web (and thereby making myself and a good portion of the other members of the list-serv miserable).  I told him who I was, and that I thought that an apology was in order.  And that was it.  He had no choice.  And I went away feeling guilty and sad that I&#8217;d bothered to put so much energy into reaping some sort of &#8220;revenge&#8221; from this character who was so devoid of self-esteem.</p>
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		<title>By: MemeMachineGo!</title>
		<link>http://www.contentious.com/2005/01/28/online-porcupines-pricky-business-online-vermin-part-1/#comment-13266</link>
		<dc:creator>MemeMachineGo!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Feb 2005 04:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-13266</guid>
		<description>&lt;trackback /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Porcupines&lt;/strong&gt;
In a series on online vermin, Amy Gahran describes: Online Porcupines: People who seem unable to write a sentence that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<trackback /><strong>Porcupines</strong><br />
In a series on online vermin, Amy Gahran describes: Online Porcupines: People who seem unable to write a sentence that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Skapare</title>
		<link>http://www.contentious.com/2005/01/28/online-porcupines-pricky-business-online-vermin-part-1/#comment-11040</link>
		<dc:creator>Skapare</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-11040</guid>
		<description>Well, it's nice to know what one is, and I've learned I'm an online porcupine. Oh, how many people I've pissed of! I don't regret it - in fact they were all dirtbags - but I see now how it could have been avoided. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it&#8217;s nice to know what one is, and I&#8217;ve learned I&#8217;m an online porcupine. Oh, how many people I&#8217;ve pissed of! I don&#8217;t regret it - in fact they were all dirtbags - but I see now how it could have been avoided. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Debra Broughton</title>
		<link>http://www.contentious.com/2005/01/28/online-porcupines-pricky-business-online-vermin-part-1/#comment-10928</link>
		<dc:creator>Debra Broughton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2005 14:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-10928</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that people will often write on-line things they would never say to your face. Forums and emails lack two important sources of intepretation - tone of voice and body language, so it's even more important to choose words carefully. You may be joking but if I can't see the smile or hear the laughter, how am I supposed to know that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that people will often write on-line things they would never say to your face. Forums and emails lack two important sources of intepretation - tone of voice and body language, so it&#8217;s even more important to choose words carefully. You may be joking but if I can&#8217;t see the smile or hear the laughter, how am I supposed to know that?</p>
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		<title>By: b-nonymouse</title>
		<link>http://www.contentious.com/2005/01/28/online-porcupines-pricky-business-online-vermin-part-1/#comment-10681</link>
		<dc:creator>b-nonymouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Feb 2005 02:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-10681</guid>
		<description>Loves and multiciplous kissery! 

The porqupines are but human's souls trapped in a lighthouse that sometimes burns too bright. I would argue, berate and impose: They highlight themselves with as strong a stroke as they can. 

Now go on, form an opinion and see how bright that light shown. Introspection? or bright lights revealing something other than their source?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Loves and multiciplous kissery! </p>
<p>The porqupines are but human&#8217;s souls trapped in a lighthouse that sometimes burns too bright. I would argue, berate and impose: They highlight themselves with as strong a stroke as they can. </p>
<p>Now go on, form an opinion and see how bright that light shown. Introspection? or bright lights revealing something other than their source?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.contentious.com/2005/01/28/online-porcupines-pricky-business-online-vermin-part-1/#comment-10633</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2005 22:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-10633</guid>
		<description>Butch up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Butch up.</p>
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		<title>By: clvrmnky</title>
		<link>http://www.contentious.com/2005/01/28/online-porcupines-pricky-business-online-vermin-part-1/#comment-10613</link>
		<dc:creator>clvrmnky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-10613</guid>
		<description>I think that your definition of the Porcupine is spot on.  It matches my experience on USENET, anyway.

However, I'm not entirely sure your example is the best one (as someone else has already pointed out.)  That being said, I often find myself rewriting my posts to make the language milder, just so nothing is taken too out of context.  The example you give is just too mild for most people to get, I imagine. 

I'm not sure who this "Roger" is, but his "laws" seem a bit simplistic.  While it may be useful to grow a thicker skin and not take things too seriously, many people have not learned how to communicate in a manner that minimizes these frictions of which he speaks.  I would go so far as to suggest that a "Porcupine" would be someone who, despite all their best intentions, still keeps getting into pointless net arguments, pissing matches and flame-wars.  Perhaps assuming that everyone should just suck it up and get used to it is not the appropriate position to take in this case.  Debate and argument is a two-way street.

This is what you seem to suggest in your text, I think.  Any misunderstandings are my own.

I think it's important to note that, despite the notion of how much we'd like things to be contrary, interpersonal communication in any media can be contentious at times.  Learning how to frame a rebuttal so it does not sound like a personal attack at all is a necessary skill if you want to avoid pointless arguments about arguments.  This is true in Real Life just as it is in the virtual world.  

For example, one of the best ways to simply avoid argument and get your point across is to not use the word "you" so damn much.  This is one of the hallmarks of rhetoric and debate that can make a huge difference.  The judicious use of "I understand.." or "what I hear from you is..." or "one could take the position..." goes a long way to ensuring that arguments stay on topic and actually have some use to the rest of the humans listening in.

By the way, this comment is written by a recovering Porcupine; not so much online (where I had patient old-timers to shape my behaviour [this was before the Neverending September]) but in my real personal life.  Learning not to attack every "weak" position in the most trivial discussions is definitely the #1 thing Porcupines need to learn.  #2 is to listen and respond appropriately, and take everything so damned personally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that your definition of the Porcupine is spot on.  It matches my experience on USENET, anyway.</p>
<p>However, I&#8217;m not entirely sure your example is the best one (as someone else has already pointed out.)  That being said, I often find myself rewriting my posts to make the language milder, just so nothing is taken too out of context.  The example you give is just too mild for most people to get, I imagine. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure who this &#8220;Roger&#8221; is, but his &#8220;laws&#8221; seem a bit simplistic.  While it may be useful to grow a thicker skin and not take things too seriously, many people have not learned how to communicate in a manner that minimizes these frictions of which he speaks.  I would go so far as to suggest that a &#8220;Porcupine&#8221; would be someone who, despite all their best intentions, still keeps getting into pointless net arguments, pissing matches and flame-wars.  Perhaps assuming that everyone should just suck it up and get used to it is not the appropriate position to take in this case.  Debate and argument is a two-way street.</p>
<p>This is what you seem to suggest in your text, I think.  Any misunderstandings are my own.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s important to note that, despite the notion of how much we&#8217;d like things to be contrary, interpersonal communication in any media can be contentious at times.  Learning how to frame a rebuttal so it does not sound like a personal attack at all is a necessary skill if you want to avoid pointless arguments about arguments.  This is true in Real Life just as it is in the virtual world.  </p>
<p>For example, one of the best ways to simply avoid argument and get your point across is to not use the word &#8220;you&#8221; so damn much.  This is one of the hallmarks of rhetoric and debate that can make a huge difference.  The judicious use of &#8220;I understand..&#8221; or &#8220;what I hear from you is&#8230;&#8221; or &#8220;one could take the position&#8230;&#8221; goes a long way to ensuring that arguments stay on topic and actually have some use to the rest of the humans listening in.</p>
<p>By the way, this comment is written by a recovering Porcupine; not so much online (where I had patient old-timers to shape my behaviour [this was before the Neverending September]) but in my real personal life.  Learning not to attack every &#8220;weak&#8221; position in the most trivial discussions is definitely the #1 thing Porcupines need to learn.  #2 is to listen and respond appropriately, and take everything so damned personally.</p>
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		<title>By: cogdogblog</title>
		<link>http://www.contentious.com/2005/01/28/online-porcupines-pricky-business-online-vermin-part-1/#comment-10380</link>
		<dc:creator>cogdogblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Jan 2005 06:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-10380</guid>
		<description>&lt;trackback /&gt;&lt;strong&gt;A Few More Critters for Amy's Menagerie (Courtesy of the Porcupine Anti-Defamation Scoiety)&lt;/strong&gt;
I am a card carrying porcupine. According to Amy Gahtan's new series on "Handling Online Vermin", the internet is swarming with undesirable, nasty "vermin" who apparently threaten the well being of innocent online souls: online media presents a de...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<trackback /><strong>A Few More Critters for Amy&#8217;s Menagerie (Courtesy of the Porcupine Anti-Defamation Scoiety)</strong><br />
I am a card carrying porcupine. According to Amy Gahtan&#8217;s new series on &#8220;Handling Online Vermin&#8221;, the internet is swarming with undesirable, nasty &#8220;vermin&#8221; who apparently threaten the well being of innocent online souls: online media presents a de&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Benningfield</title>
		<link>http://www.contentious.com/2005/01/28/online-porcupines-pricky-business-online-vermin-part-1/#comment-10356</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Benningfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:36:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-10356</guid>
		<description>"Now, this particular porcupine was probably only trying to voice disagreement with the premise of the original statement, and maybe even show a sense of humor. Unfortunately, the result was condescending."

I couldn't possibly disagree more. The response was direct, addressed the point with personal style, and didn't condescend to the original poster by assuming she was incapable of adult discourse.

In fact, at risk of being branded a porcupine myself, I've gotta tell ya... you're spreading the disease here, not the cure.  By giving hypersensitive folks a justification for their feelings of distress at the first sign of intellectual conflict, you're enabling the kind of pointless exchanges that it appears you'd like to avoid.

Roger's First Law of Online Community:

"Cyberspace encourages a strange sort of intimacy. Intimacy leads to a sense of contact. Contact causes several kinds of friction. These are the Physics of Communication, and you'll be much happier in the long run if you accept them and expect them."

More significantly, I must ask:

If the statement "you’ve got the cart before the horse" is somehow an implicit example of myopic, malformed social interaction, then what do we call a public dissection of that statement that explicitly brands the author as "online vermin"? Why is this post any less rude, or any less an example of poor communicative habits?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Now, this particular porcupine was probably only trying to voice disagreement with the premise of the original statement, and maybe even show a sense of humor. Unfortunately, the result was condescending.&#8221;</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t possibly disagree more. The response was direct, addressed the point with personal style, and didn&#8217;t condescend to the original poster by assuming she was incapable of adult discourse.</p>
<p>In fact, at risk of being branded a porcupine myself, I&#8217;ve gotta tell ya&#8230; you&#8217;re spreading the disease here, not the cure.  By giving hypersensitive folks a justification for their feelings of distress at the first sign of intellectual conflict, you&#8217;re enabling the kind of pointless exchanges that it appears you&#8217;d like to avoid.</p>
<p>Roger&#8217;s First Law of Online Community:</p>
<p>&#8220;Cyberspace encourages a strange sort of intimacy. Intimacy leads to a sense of contact. Contact causes several kinds of friction. These are the Physics of Communication, and you&#8217;ll be much happier in the long run if you accept them and expect them.&#8221;</p>
<p>More significantly, I must ask:</p>
<p>If the statement &#8220;you’ve got the cart before the horse&#8221; is somehow an implicit example of myopic, malformed social interaction, then what do we call a public dissection of that statement that explicitly brands the author as &#8220;online vermin&#8221;? Why is this post any less rude, or any less an example of poor communicative habits?</p>
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